The Passionate Rationalist

Mr. Morrow, I am so very sorry to hear of Pooka's passing. I met her at Monster Bash (I'm Jeff, the guy who gave you the Last Supper after dinner mints, if you remember) and she was a very nice and beautiful dog. My deepest condolences to you and your family.

As for the Pope, I can only agree. I grew up Catholic but I got better!

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I much appreciate your condolences, Jeff. Thanks again for the Testamints. Your Dwight Frye logo is the bug's nuts.

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The bug's nuts? I never heard that expression but I love it!

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My most heartfelt condolences on the loss of Pooka. As someone who has had to say goodbye to beloved furry friends of all sorts, my heart is with you. My wife and I handle our grief differently, and I'll offer one amusing story (I hope) to help bring a smile -- we had rescued a ferret who only was with us for a year, but she was so ...just great. A true ferret's ferret. Anyway, she had a tumor, and didn't make it through the surgery -- the vet was a class act. He left me alone with her, to bawl my face off, and distracted my wife by offering to show her the tumor (she did her crying on the way in).

Re: atheism -- I think the anthropologist in the crowd has a very good point. If you consider the willingness to die for a cause a meme of its own, and a powerful one at that, selection pressures would act (or could act) to give the individual better breeding opportunities to others of a like mind. Also, atheism doesn't have a philisophical responsibility for its folks to go out and populate the world -- rather the opposite if you consider that many atheists have beliefs regarding stewardship of the planet and an awareness of population pressures.

This is assuming the martyr has a chance to breed first, or at least that his/her martyrdom makes his genetic kin more attractive. I guess that also assumes that we're considering evolution as yes, not strictly genetic.

Also -- I think you'd have to distinguish active atheism vs. a sort of mmm, non-belief for lack of anything better to do? I'm an atheist, but I'm not very vocal about it -- I consider the majority of religious beliefs relatively harmless, when it comes to the majority of people. I DO consider them very dangerous in the hands of the fringe, but am I willing to die to convert? Not likely -- but I vote and protest if religions threaten our freedoms.

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Thanks for this thoughtful post. I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your ferret. The world would be a better place if it were run by veterinarians rather than ideologues.

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I am so sorry for your loss. Sometimes people aren't capable of understanding that family is family, and loss is loss, whether your family members have four feet or two.

I'm glad you gave Pooka a chance to die at home, surrounded by loved ones.

All the best to you.

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When you get a chance, please reel off the names of the heroes and heroines on your icon. I'm embarrassed to say it, but I recognize only the three men.

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So goes the chorus of a song I heard last year, never guessing it was likely a reference to one of your books. Death By Doll is the band, one of many projects by artist Dame Darcy, and sounds about what you'd expect a punk-blue grass musician to sound like when they explore darkwave.

Your wikipedia page was linked to me following your quote about foxholes, and I thought it might amuse you to know a different angle of your influence.

Laugh with a feeling of significance, it's strong medicine against the pull of both death and martyrdom.

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Back in March, I was invited to contribute to David Gutowski's web feature, Largehearted Boy, where writers talk about the relationship between their work and music. Besides discussing the acoustic dimensions of "The Philosopher's Apprentice," I ended up commenting on an unexpected bonus of being a fiction-maker: having talented people convert your prose into songs and suites. At the time I didn't know about that Death by Doll lyric, or I would have mentioned it. Any idea how I might obtain a recording of the song in question?

This link should take you to my Larghearted Boy essay ... http://www.largeheartedboy.com/blog/archive/2008/03/book_notes_jame_1.html

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Search "death by doll" on itunes, the delightfully purple album cover for "Gasoline" should come right up. The song is called "Towing Jehova."

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I know how you feel. My wife and I love animals. We have two dalmatians and two cats. We had three dalmations but one of them is gone now. We cried, of course. There is a book by Mitch Albom called "Tuesdays With Morry," and some people might think what I'm wrong for applying this to animals when the book was about a human being approaching death, but the thing I took away from that book is to not hold back the mourning and tears; in fact, as you cry and mourn, the grief passes through you and dissipates. It might come back, but then you do the same thing again, and you find peace again.

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I appreciate this thought. There is indeed a positive dimension to mourning. I think C.S. Lewis was wrong when he famously asserted that grief feels very much like fear. (But then, of course, I think that Lewis was wrong about almost everything, so I'm no judge.) As you say, it's cathartic. It passes through you. Grief says yes to the cosmos. And I've always liked dalmatians, who are mighty frisky folk.

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I'm quite sorry to hear about your dog. I'm a dog lover myself and I know they become part of the family.

As for the pope, all of your questions about his position on those things can be answered in this eloquent and wonderful essay he wrote before he became leader of the Catholic Church. He discusses it a lot more deeply in this essay. I'm not even Catholic, and I find that even it speaks to the world I see.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/RATZRELA.HTM

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At the risk of being glib, I'd say atheism is an idea we all die for whether we're willing to or not ;)

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Hey Mr. Morrow so sorry to hear about the loss of Pooka,(may the force be with her). On religion, Einstein's letters regarding God, he states he would never call himself an atheist, rather be called an agnostic, because he felt atheists where just as intollerent as Christian fundamentalist. What do you think of Mr. Einstein's perspective. Alan.

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Hi Alan: thanks for your condolences. As for the Einstein question, I think it's necessary to separate the concept of "intolerance" from any and all category labels we might apply to our fellow human beings. True, I suspect there is more per capita intolerance among Christian fundamentalists than among those of other theistic confessions, such as liberal Episcopalians -- but only because the fundamentalist argument requires of its adherents a commitment to the infinitely mischievous notion of scriptural inerrancy, and the Bible has, throughout history, notoriously provided chapter-and-verse comfort to anti-Semites, homophobes, misogynists, jingoists, slaveholders, and racists.

Let me hasten to add, however, that the instant you learn that a particular person is a Christian fundamentalist -- or an agnostic, an atheist, a pagan, a Muslim, an Orthodox Jew, or any other variety of humankind -- you have learned nothing, and I mean nothing, about that individual's level of tolerance.

As for Einstein, I assume you're referring to the following letter.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24668015

Does it matter whether we choose to call Einstein's idiosyncratic religious views "agnostic" rather than "atheist"? I think not. He was certainly "atheist" vis-à-vis virtually every conventional understanding of a supreme being. I prefer the term "atheist" for my own worldview, because I find it more robust, resonant, and forthright than "agnostic."

Of course, it's possible to define God in ways that even an atheist like myself might endorse (see my novel called "Only Begotten Daughter," in which God turns out to be a sponge). Einstein talked often of God, but it's pretty clear that he meant something like "the provisional knowability of the given," rather than "the God of my fathers."

Edited at 2008-05-25 11:12 pm (UTC)

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James Morrow wrote: "Let me hasten to add, however, that the instant you learn that a particular person is a Christian fundamentalist -- or an agnostic, an atheist, a pagan, a Muslim, an Orthodox Jew, or any other variety of humankind -- you have learned nothing, and I mean nothing, about that individual's level of tolerance."

Hear, hear!

Very well said.

I'm glad that you included atheist and agnostic in that list. Many of the comments here, for example, leave me questioning the level of tolerance of their atheist writers. There are three things I know about most of the people who post comments here: 1) they are atheists, 2) they are fans of the work of James Morrow, and 3) they are angry about religion. The first and second are perfectly acceptable, but the third is intolerant towards the countless people who find happiness in organized faith, and it stems not from reason but from anger: negative emotion, which is the real source of all evil. If you don't believe in God, that doesn't give you the right to call people who do, "religious nutters."

There are three things you may know about me: 1) I believe in God, 2) I am a fan of the work of James Morrow, and 3) I am angry about the irrational animosity and intolerance that many atheists have of us believers.

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My deepest sympathies to you for your loss. Losing a cherished pet is a terrible thing to have to go through.

As for the pope...yeesh. I don't even want to get started down that path. It usually ends in anger and profanity laden rants. I'll just say that I agree with you.

I don't claim to be atheist. I tell religious people (because they always ask if I've heard the good news, or accepted this or that being as my personal what have you) that I am an Omnitheist. I believe in ALL gods. This way I get to pick a god for each day or mood or shirt color. Bonus: religious nutters will often never speak to me again and I've actually had some great conversations with more rational people who overheard me saying it. I'd try proselytizing but Omnitheism forbids it.

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I am currently in an email discussion with a Catholic who put forth the tremendous list of devoted martyrs as a reason to be persuaded by that particular faith. Whether or not being willing to die for a set of mere beliefs makes a good meme or not, I don't know. All I know is that it leads to a great deal of wasted human life. Better than being willing to kill for an idea, but not much better. The end result either way is needlessly dead people.

I love Ghandi's non-violent activism, but I view his fasting protests as a form of violence. Violence against one's self is still violence.

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Greetings Jim, Kathy & Chris:

I'm so sorry to hear of Pooka's death. Please accept our deepest condolences. We'll raise a glass to dear absent friends and family at Readercon, ok?

I didn't know about it until I came across your LJ. I've only just recently discovered your livejournal account. Unacceptable, I know, but I can only know about so much of the web at one time. ;-)

Take care. See you in a few days time.

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Kathy and Chris and I appreciate your sentiments. It was great seeing you at that great event, Readercon.

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Pets become extended family members. When they die, yes we cry... but we also acknowledge the fact that they, in becoming "family," have become closer to humanity. When they finally evolve into something along the lines of humanity, we'll have to attempt to cure them from that ailment.

Perhaps that's where the Papal Office can come in. Perhaps the monstrosity of "human scent" can be removed from our (evolved) pets (in the future) through some sort of confessional cleansing and a Papal pooper-scooper.

"... an idea that people are willing to die for... "

That's is in itself frightening to me. The ideas people are willing to die for usually do just that: kill others. All of it's a mental Jihad.

Personally, I go from Nietzsche musings to the need to believe in things. I find atheism depressingly honest, often leaving woeful angst, then I look at people who believe in "something," and in their self-delusions they are so happy living in mesmerism. So... with the full knowledge of self-deceit, I sometimes lap up the illusions of my culture until I'm happy and fully deceived. Then I regurgitate the illusion for a smattering of truth and taste of atheistic and philosophical honesty, and I thrive until I become depressed and the NEED to believe overcomes me again.

Perhaps this NEED TO BELIEVE is why humans have evolved, forcing us to survive, to create a future--even a future after death.

JAM

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I have been an atheist since I woke up at the age of fourteen... Finding your books has been, if you'll pardon the term, a godsend (Towing Jehova was the first one I read)... To read a novel that shares my philosophical point of view, without getting bitter or heavy, is refreshing to say the least.

Now, at thirty-three years of age, I find your anthropologist-friend's question interesting. My opinion on this is that atheist or agnostic people are not willing to die for their beliefs because, aside from persecution and execution, they've never had to. There has never been a movement en masse by atheists on a political plane. There have been no wars fought for atheism. Perhaps if countries around the world declared atheism "sinful and illegal", then protests and the like might arise (hopefully) and, subsequently, atheists would adopt a more political agenda, including the willingness to die for their beliefs. I know I would...

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As Americans we take it for granted that American atheism has a strong anti-christian or anti-judeo tilt.

but exploring biblical premises can be a lot of fun. If God made us in his own image it implies a lot. People have been making up stories and ideas since forever: we must get that from god. Why is it fun? mostly just to see what happens or to roleplay.

People have been selectively breeding plants and animals into new breeds for generations. We must get that from god. This has been a short burst of time and ability in the immensity of space and history. What little we've done surely god could more greatly over much more time and space.

We don't get too far into the concept of immortal souls until later in Christianity, so far as I know. I haven't researched it much. if we do have eternal souls or consciousness, regardless of the religious creation myth its framed against, whatever joy and suffering happens in life is just a field trip.

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I probably shouldn't comment, since a) it's five months later and b) I'm so queer I don't even know what species I am. However I am of the opinion that we invented "god" at about the same time we cut ourselves off from all other species. I have no need for "god," because I am surrounded by all manner of intelligence in material/living form. I've not yet met a nuthatch who couldn't beat any deity or cathedral at giving me a sense of awe and joy and humility.

The ache you feel I completely understand, and I admire you even more for it, Mr. Morrow. And you have long had my admiration, at least in the virtual way in which readers admire writers, mind meeting mind in text: I re-read /OBD/ and the Towing Jehovah trilogy each year; the former is one of my two favorite fiction books of all time, along with /Riddley Walker/. I am not a pray-er...but if I were, Amanda the Sponge would be the second best imaginable deity.

I have shared your well-expressed sense that with the loss of these creature comforters, we lose something very precious, something greater than the prison of our own species-image. If it is any comfort, however--when your heart scabs over a bit, and stops aching then itching--perhaps it can be this: our biosphere is jampacked with these magical "animal" hearts. Pooka came out of them, and she returns into them. She can and will be with you again. Only we humans get into the habit of the illusion of individuality, you see.

Spend some time with Pennsylvania chickadees and blue jays. They'll show you the way.

with great respect and warmth
mikke

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Dear Mikke: I'm very grateful for the beautiful and affirming thoughts that accrued to your condolences over Pooka. I especially love your line, "I've not yet met a nuthatch who couldn't beat any deity or cathedral at giving me a sense of awe and joy and humility." In fact, I hope that my novel-in-progress, an historical epic about the birth of the Darwinian worldview, will emerge as a kind of extended meditation on that idea.

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Why is it that atheists are not willing to die for their ideas? Perhaps if one is devoted to miracles occurring only before one's birth and/or after one's death, then one might as well die -- an atheist has the present to live for, specifically the every day here-and-now miracle of having a space and time in which to exist.

If an atheist were to die for any idea, it might be for capital-U-utopia. To be saved from that temptation, I think, means that the utopian ideal must be put in its place: the minds of flawed but charming homo sapiens. A long essay on Zizek, a follower of Lacan, at The New Republic ("The Deadly Jester," by Adam Kirsch) tempts me to feel confirmed in a previous contention, oft-stated privately, that utopianism and fascism are incestuous cousins whose offspring are religious delinquents and ranting politicians. (It also concerns me that Zizek apparently has a serious "liberal" following; Dillard's Pilgrim At Tinker Creek will be an antidote to the Zizekian poison that I have ingested today.)

I look forward to your next book, Mr. Morrow, and will be on the watch for remembrances of Pooka when I read it.

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